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	<title>Comments on: Explaining the Minnesota Mentality: Part Two</title>
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		<title>By: poker bankroll</title>
		<link>http://twinsfix.com/2008/12/explaining-the-minnesota-mentality-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-545</link>
		<dc:creator>poker bankroll</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Mar 2009 08:17:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twinsfix.com/?p=301#comment-545</guid>
		<description>This advice is really going to help, thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This advice is really going to help, thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://twinsfix.com/2008/12/explaining-the-minnesota-mentality-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-436</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 06:59:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twinsfix.com/?p=301#comment-436</guid>
		<description>A good argument can be made that baseball players are actually underpaid, relative to what they were getting 5 years ago (as a portion of overall baseball revenue).  There are many more billionares in the US than superstar-caliber baseball players in the world.

Pohlad of course is one of the richest owners in sports- the Steinbrenners are sad little peons by comparison.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A good argument can be made that baseball players are actually underpaid, relative to what they were getting 5 years ago (as a portion of overall baseball revenue).  There are many more billionares in the US than superstar-caliber baseball players in the world.</p>
<p>Pohlad of course is one of the richest owners in sports- the Steinbrenners are sad little peons by comparison.</p>
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		<title>By: usuk</title>
		<link>http://twinsfix.com/2008/12/explaining-the-minnesota-mentality-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-435</link>
		<dc:creator>usuk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:11:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twinsfix.com/?p=301#comment-435</guid>
		<description>The reality is that some teams spend too much money and over-inflate salaries. If they didn&#039;t do this, everything would probably even out.

It&#039;s kinda like people complaining that auto workers, bus drivers or some government folks (postal workers) make more money than teachers and that teacehrs should be paid more. No, teacchers are pretty well paid, its just the others are maybe a bit overpaid.

Professional ballplayers are very well paid these days. Even those that are minor league vets and pulling down $50 grand as a 6+ year minor league guy with hopes of still one or two months of a major league paycheck.

It&#039;s just that so many are vastly overpaid.

In the real old days, when I graduated form college, I looked at my earning potential and thought I might be lucky to make a million dollars in a lifetime of work (40 years). That has changed since the early 70s. But still......</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reality is that some teams spend too much money and over-inflate salaries. If they didn&#8217;t do this, everything would probably even out.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s kinda like people complaining that auto workers, bus drivers or some government folks (postal workers) make more money than teachers and that teacehrs should be paid more. No, teacchers are pretty well paid, its just the others are maybe a bit overpaid.</p>
<p>Professional ballplayers are very well paid these days. Even those that are minor league vets and pulling down $50 grand as a 6+ year minor league guy with hopes of still one or two months of a major league paycheck.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s just that so many are vastly overpaid.</p>
<p>In the real old days, when I graduated form college, I looked at my earning potential and thought I might be lucky to make a million dollars in a lifetime of work (40 years). That has changed since the early 70s. But still&#8230;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://twinsfix.com/2008/12/explaining-the-minnesota-mentality-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-434</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Dec 2008 18:26:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twinsfix.com/?p=301#comment-434</guid>
		<description>Shannon, there are two problems with your argument.  First, that 2003 Marlins team actually did add a key free agent- Ivan Rodriguez, who was a leader of that team.

But secondly, the Marlins did not win the World Series operating the way the Twins do.  They made a bunch of trades to put the right team together and then blew it up after-- the Twins on the other hand just stand pat.

My statement- that no team operating like the Twins has won the World Series in a while- is true, though arguably of little weight since few other teams are so resistant to change.

A more accurate statement would be:  no other decent team operates like the Twins because they know you can&#039;t win a World Series that way.  Some horrible teams claim to emulate the Twins just to justify to their fans why they spend no money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shannon, there are two problems with your argument.  First, that 2003 Marlins team actually did add a key free agent- Ivan Rodriguez, who was a leader of that team.</p>
<p>But secondly, the Marlins did not win the World Series operating the way the Twins do.  They made a bunch of trades to put the right team together and then blew it up after&#8211; the Twins on the other hand just stand pat.</p>
<p>My statement- that no team operating like the Twins has won the World Series in a while- is true, though arguably of little weight since few other teams are so resistant to change.</p>
<p>A more accurate statement would be:  no other decent team operates like the Twins because they know you can&#8217;t win a World Series that way.  Some horrible teams claim to emulate the Twins just to justify to their fans why they spend no money.</p>
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		<title>By: Shannon</title>
		<link>http://twinsfix.com/2008/12/explaining-the-minnesota-mentality-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-433</link>
		<dc:creator>Shannon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:30:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twinsfix.com/?p=301#comment-433</guid>
		<description>John not that long ago the Marlins won the World Series, how would you describe their philosophy?  Other than the Bobby Bonilla et. al. World Series/ expansion team they have a more conservative FA strategy than anyone AND they sell their players at the first opportunity.  Apparently it works for them but it would be frustrating as hell to be a fan, I think Oakland would be tough to pull for as well.  Before you slag someone by putting out a absolute statement...&quot;The team’s approach is a direct result of the restrictions placed upon it. No team wants to operate this way, and no recent World Series winner has.&quot;  do a little bit of homework.

Shannon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John not that long ago the Marlins won the World Series, how would you describe their philosophy?  Other than the Bobby Bonilla et. al. World Series/ expansion team they have a more conservative FA strategy than anyone AND they sell their players at the first opportunity.  Apparently it works for them but it would be frustrating as hell to be a fan, I think Oakland would be tough to pull for as well.  Before you slag someone by putting out a absolute statement&#8230;&#8221;The team’s approach is a direct result of the restrictions placed upon it. No team wants to operate this way, and no recent World Series winner has.&#8221;  do a little bit of homework.</p>
<p>Shannon</p>
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		<title>By: usuk</title>
		<link>http://twinsfix.com/2008/12/explaining-the-minnesota-mentality-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-431</link>
		<dc:creator>usuk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Dec 2008 17:32:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twinsfix.com/?p=301#comment-431</guid>
		<description>Yes, the Twins have developed players. Yes, they are good at identifying prospects from other clubs that they can obtain via those same low-grade free agents they often sign. 

The amount of superstars in this business is not that large. Is there a differenace between Justin Morneau and Mark Texeria that accounts for $100 million more in play? Will one single-handedly win for a team, or will one mesh with the other players to form a powerful core?

For any complaints about alst season&#039;s free agent signings, they were on par with Twins needs. Craig Monroe was picked up to be a potential outfielder if the Twins chose to go withut Hunter, moving to part-timer/bench bat and DH if the need be. The Twins were still unsure about Jason Kubel. Monroe did bang some homers and knocked in some runs, but also made too many outs to make one jump up and down with joy.

Livan Hernandez was there because of the uncertainity of almost the entire starting staff. It allowed the Twins to take a chance on perkins and Balckburn, who pushed Boof to the bullpen, and covered for Slowey when he was briefly down, and also allowed the Twins to give Francisco some more seasoning. He won 10 games, pretty fast...if there was one error, it was to cut him sooner and maybe those last four losses could&#039;ve been wins, thus pushing the Twins to first palce by themselves.

Adam Everett was the shorstop plug until the Twins made a decision on Casilla. Harris/Punto were to be the second basemen last year. Harris/Lamb the third baseman. Tolbert was figured to be the main backup. Sadly, not only didn&#039;t Everett hit (which was expected) but he couldn&#039;t throw. Mike Lamb, who the Twins were expecting at least 15 homers and 60-70 rbi plus a decent batting average just didn&#039;t do it, even with a helluva a lot of at-bats. That the Twins would&#039;ve done just as well without them is beyond the point, especially when Everett did come back briefly when Casilla went down (who also suffered NOT being a switch-hitter during the final months). On the whole, the free agent signings were a stopgap until the Twins saw what they had. That they cut Mike Lamb with a year still owed is questionable. But it was a factor of roster numbers at the time. I still think he would&#039;ve been the nice bench bat, back-up at third and first, that the Twins could use (and a vet presence) in 2009.

Like said, the Twins don&#039;t play the free agent market, because signing a Johan to a $100 million contract would kill the team if he became injured. They did go out on the limb with Morneau, Cuddyer and Mauer for long-term. Unless the injury is truly drastic, you can usually put a position player somewhere, but a pitcher only pitches (i.e. Joe Mays). 

What frosts so many Twins fans is not taking the chance on the mid-season pick-up that will be expensive THAT season at the loss of a few prospects. How many &quot;prospects&quot; make it to the maor each season? (1-5) How many stick around for more than a year. 1-3) How many long-term? (1) There&#039;s a lot of bodies at all levels that are trading chips. They eventually become minor league free agents, blow-themselves out of competition, and are always replacable by the next crop of guys...plus you can cherry-pick other organizations in trades and minor league signings for those pecious &quot;prospects&quot; who become role players. It&#039;s not always the suepr prospects that have an imapct on clubs, its that 4th outfielder, that reserve infielder, that middle-relief guy, that 4th and 5th starter. These are the guys that perform and are hungry, that fill the holes until the next role plaeyr pushes them away. You don&#039;t want to pay multi-millions to 5-7 guys on any roster to ride the bench or mop-up, or give you a good five innings. The Twins are often GREAT at finding these folks and also allowing them to move on...sometimes with success elsehwere (Casey Blake?).

The otehr big thing is chemistry and fitting into the organization. Yes, the Twins have a good system of minor league coaches and mangers that play the same game as the major league manager and his coaches. They like the guys to be a part of the team. If you play the game well, you will get your millions, but you must play the game. If you like the clubhouse atmosphere and play as a team to win, maybe you will be comfortable with a few millions ($100 million) less that playing in the cesspool or New York or L.A. or Kansas City (sic). But there is no loyalty with team owners and even less with players.

I want to play is the main focus of a player. I want to win is the focus of name players and ownership. And if you throw money at me, why shouldn&#039;t I consider (and take) it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, the Twins have developed players. Yes, they are good at identifying prospects from other clubs that they can obtain via those same low-grade free agents they often sign. </p>
<p>The amount of superstars in this business is not that large. Is there a differenace between Justin Morneau and Mark Texeria that accounts for $100 million more in play? Will one single-handedly win for a team, or will one mesh with the other players to form a powerful core?</p>
<p>For any complaints about alst season&#8217;s free agent signings, they were on par with Twins needs. Craig Monroe was picked up to be a potential outfielder if the Twins chose to go withut Hunter, moving to part-timer/bench bat and DH if the need be. The Twins were still unsure about Jason Kubel. Monroe did bang some homers and knocked in some runs, but also made too many outs to make one jump up and down with joy.</p>
<p>Livan Hernandez was there because of the uncertainity of almost the entire starting staff. It allowed the Twins to take a chance on perkins and Balckburn, who pushed Boof to the bullpen, and covered for Slowey when he was briefly down, and also allowed the Twins to give Francisco some more seasoning. He won 10 games, pretty fast&#8230;if there was one error, it was to cut him sooner and maybe those last four losses could&#8217;ve been wins, thus pushing the Twins to first palce by themselves.</p>
<p>Adam Everett was the shorstop plug until the Twins made a decision on Casilla. Harris/Punto were to be the second basemen last year. Harris/Lamb the third baseman. Tolbert was figured to be the main backup. Sadly, not only didn&#8217;t Everett hit (which was expected) but he couldn&#8217;t throw. Mike Lamb, who the Twins were expecting at least 15 homers and 60-70 rbi plus a decent batting average just didn&#8217;t do it, even with a helluva a lot of at-bats. That the Twins would&#8217;ve done just as well without them is beyond the point, especially when Everett did come back briefly when Casilla went down (who also suffered NOT being a switch-hitter during the final months). On the whole, the free agent signings were a stopgap until the Twins saw what they had. That they cut Mike Lamb with a year still owed is questionable. But it was a factor of roster numbers at the time. I still think he would&#8217;ve been the nice bench bat, back-up at third and first, that the Twins could use (and a vet presence) in 2009.</p>
<p>Like said, the Twins don&#8217;t play the free agent market, because signing a Johan to a $100 million contract would kill the team if he became injured. They did go out on the limb with Morneau, Cuddyer and Mauer for long-term. Unless the injury is truly drastic, you can usually put a position player somewhere, but a pitcher only pitches (i.e. Joe Mays). </p>
<p>What frosts so many Twins fans is not taking the chance on the mid-season pick-up that will be expensive THAT season at the loss of a few prospects. How many &#8220;prospects&#8221; make it to the maor each season? (1-5) How many stick around for more than a year. 1-3) How many long-term? (1) There&#8217;s a lot of bodies at all levels that are trading chips. They eventually become minor league free agents, blow-themselves out of competition, and are always replacable by the next crop of guys&#8230;plus you can cherry-pick other organizations in trades and minor league signings for those pecious &#8220;prospects&#8221; who become role players. It&#8217;s not always the suepr prospects that have an imapct on clubs, its that 4th outfielder, that reserve infielder, that middle-relief guy, that 4th and 5th starter. These are the guys that perform and are hungry, that fill the holes until the next role plaeyr pushes them away. You don&#8217;t want to pay multi-millions to 5-7 guys on any roster to ride the bench or mop-up, or give you a good five innings. The Twins are often GREAT at finding these folks and also allowing them to move on&#8230;sometimes with success elsehwere (Casey Blake?).</p>
<p>The otehr big thing is chemistry and fitting into the organization. Yes, the Twins have a good system of minor league coaches and mangers that play the same game as the major league manager and his coaches. They like the guys to be a part of the team. If you play the game well, you will get your millions, but you must play the game. If you like the clubhouse atmosphere and play as a team to win, maybe you will be comfortable with a few millions ($100 million) less that playing in the cesspool or New York or L.A. or Kansas City (sic). But there is no loyalty with team owners and even less with players.</p>
<p>I want to play is the main focus of a player. I want to win is the focus of name players and ownership. And if you throw money at me, why shouldn&#8217;t I consider (and take) it.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://twinsfix.com/2008/12/explaining-the-minnesota-mentality-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-430</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Dec 2008 16:32:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twinsfix.com/?p=301#comment-430</guid>
		<description>The Twins did not make the playoffs.  The play-in game is a regular season contest, hence its inclusion in the teams&#039; overall record.

Your argument lacks the empirical information necessary to support your claims.  Free agent signings are not simply a roll of the dice; like anything else, the team must properly evaluate the player and determine how much he is worth.  Therefore a &quot;bust&quot; is only probable when a team makes a poor evaluation.

One of the Phillies&#039; key players is Jason Werth, who they signed very cheaply in 2007.  You mention other free agents the Phillies added.  Their model is a good one- none of the FAs got a huge contract, but they were able to plug some holes and push the team towards a championship.

In my opinion you continue to minimize the Pohlads&#039; damaging ownership by separating his cheapness from the team &quot;mentality.&quot;  There is no such separation.  The team&#039;s approach is a direct result of the restrictions placed upon it.  No team wants to operate this way, and no recent World Series winner has.  You act like signing a decent free agent is mutually exclusive from developing internally, which is just not the case at all.

Also, you say:

&quot;Rather than scouting other teams’ current players and the potential free agent class, the Twins focus more scouts on talented minor leaguers who are getting passed over by their current teams&quot;

This is factually incorrect.  The Twins fully scout the Major Leagues... AL, NL, free agents, the whole enchilada.  The main reason is to develop game strategy during the season, but also in the case of a trade or cheaper free agent the information is necessary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Twins did not make the playoffs.  The play-in game is a regular season contest, hence its inclusion in the teams&#8217; overall record.</p>
<p>Your argument lacks the empirical information necessary to support your claims.  Free agent signings are not simply a roll of the dice; like anything else, the team must properly evaluate the player and determine how much he is worth.  Therefore a &#8220;bust&#8221; is only probable when a team makes a poor evaluation.</p>
<p>One of the Phillies&#8217; key players is Jason Werth, who they signed very cheaply in 2007.  You mention other free agents the Phillies added.  Their model is a good one- none of the FAs got a huge contract, but they were able to plug some holes and push the team towards a championship.</p>
<p>In my opinion you continue to minimize the Pohlads&#8217; damaging ownership by separating his cheapness from the team &#8220;mentality.&#8221;  There is no such separation.  The team&#8217;s approach is a direct result of the restrictions placed upon it.  No team wants to operate this way, and no recent World Series winner has.  You act like signing a decent free agent is mutually exclusive from developing internally, which is just not the case at all.</p>
<p>Also, you say:</p>
<p>&#8220;Rather than scouting other teams’ current players and the potential free agent class, the Twins focus more scouts on talented minor leaguers who are getting passed over by their current teams&#8221;</p>
<p>This is factually incorrect.  The Twins fully scout the Major Leagues&#8230; AL, NL, free agents, the whole enchilada.  The main reason is to develop game strategy during the season, but also in the case of a trade or cheaper free agent the information is necessary.</p>
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